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About a month ago, I took my cold diagnostic and scored horribly. Since, I've purchased the LG and LR Bibles and have gotten through Ch 5 of both and have improved but I am worried that I have a glass ceiling. My goal is a 165 and I know that the cold diagnostic means nothing but what else can I do between now and September?
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Great thread? Or greatest thread?
This kind of poor, insulting attitude is for Reddit and TLS, not 7Sage. Keep it there, please.
But we are in the real world and it actually happens, so...
I'm positive I'm not the only one here who has tried multiple methods. I'm not going to lie and pretend I devoted three years to intense study (seeing as how I was finishing my undergrad in my first year, working several jobs in my second, and only now making time for quality studying this year). But in that time, I have tried: kaplan, powerscore, private tutors, and now finally 7sage. I sincerely wish I had and deeply regret that I hadn't found 7sage earlier. You know what, maybe if I, too, had found 7sage in my first few months I could have confidently stated I'd get a 165 on my first go. The reality is, I probably wouldn't have anyways. It takes time to develop the mental perspective necessary to complete the LSAT under time and efficiently. Even if you have the skills, with limited experience you are almost guaranteed to make silly mistakes under pressure the first time. The mentors and community available to you speak words of wisdom. Learning from the mistakes of others is the best thing you could do - I see no reason to show such blatant disregard for the lessons you are receiving.
It takes different things for different people to obtain their goals. A small minority of people can sit down with this test and score a perfect 180 after three months of study. If you are a member of this group of people, then that’s great. I sincerely envy you, and you deserve all the success you will inevitably find. Law schools value that type of intellect and they will fight each other over you.
Because I am not one of these people, it takes something different for me.
It takes relentless pursuit, it takes fighting for as long and as hard as I have to, it takes never giving up and never settling for less, it takes extreme and unwavering self discipline, and it takes about a year and a half. I’ve had to scratch and claw for every point above my diagnostic score and I’ve suffered through it no matter what it took.
So I can either study for a year and a half, or I can settle for less. A year and a half does sound like a ridiculous amount of time to study for a test. But the other option is not an option I can live with; and even if some people are okay to settle with whatever it is they’re capable of after three months, I don’t think it’s at all absurd to be able to concede that insisting on one’s absolute best is not inherently a lesser option.
I don’t think anyone is trying to suggest that your ability to master this test with significantly less effort than average does not reflect value. Quite the contrary, that is extraordinary. But I think it’s a difficult position to justify to suggest that there is less value in being willing to sacrifice as much as so many of us have to fight our way to the top. Law schools value those traits as well, and they will fight each other over us.
All of my study time was during undergrad when I took a full course load and worked part time at the company I'm currently at. Some people, no idea how they manage, even study while working and taking care of children.
It's certainly possible, and "real life" sometimes contributes to why studying takes so long.
People take longer than that to pass the bar exam, so not only is it applicable in real life, it's applicable to the very career field you're trying to enter.
LMFAO got the popcorn out as soon as I read this.
My point about taking a year in a half is that it isn't applicable to real life. You don't get an entire year to study for something, in the real world. Yes the exam is scored relative to how others do but the scores don't change that much on a year to year basis.
@combsni116 First of all before I say anything I hope you ending up proving all of us wrong, and have no problems. Depending on your other sections it is totally MATHEMATICALLY POSSIBLE for you to hit a 165. Just simply get a perfect score on logic games and that alone should boost your score a huge percentage and between that and increasing the others by 2-4 each and you could totally do it.
However, that's much easier said then done and leaves little to no room for error, especially should you come across a game that makes you freeze, you have little to no show for that score. The community here is simply trying to save you the pain and suffering because I assure you the VAST MAJORITY of us approached this test with the same exact mentality of "I'll make it happen in 3 months and then take 3 months off to relax and travel and celebrate because I'll get a 170+ and get a scholarship and then I'll go off to law school and that will be that. Not to mention that we're all trying to ensure that you increase your probability for getting not only a 165 but potentially a 170.
My mentality is where do you know right now where you could personally go and get a job working and make over $150k? If you dedicate time to it and do it the right way and establish a good foundation, take PT's and BR them and go slow you could get scholarships to various schools and that's where on the cost-benefit analysis I believe personally that it pays off. For someone who was right there with you and had heard all of the same things I just want to caution you because we don't want you to spend more time studying for this then you have to and go through all of those headaches or get burnt out and give up the dreams of becoming an attorney because it doesn't end up happening exactly the way you think it will. Also understand that everyone is different in their studying habits so what works for you might not work for us or vice versa, in the end everyone just wants to see everyone succeed in the shortest time possible. For most people I've seen them have success with the LSAT Trainer more then the Bibles but again they both fulfill different roles and if the Bibles work best for you then go for it. I will say that I have not met a single person that hasn't benefitted from the BR method and from JY's video explanations regardless of what company/method they're affiliated with.
With that being said have you taken and actual LSAT before? I'm in the vast minority with this but it is my personal belief that it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to take in September, as long as you've done some studying and understanding that you're simply going in as a test run and that you won't take it again until you're scoring in PT's at/above your goal score. This is simply to get a feel for the actual test day environment because it's different for the real thing than it is for PT's. Ideally go to the same site you're going to be taking it for your actual attempts and because you've put in study time you will not be "wasting it". But this is to take in as much as possible so that way you can visualize and emulate them into your personal PT's, maybe you could even get into the same room again and take them there. Honestly it sounds like Zen meditation but it works for people in all works of life and even if it gets you 1 more question right it's totally worth it. However, I agree with @974 that realistically December should be your target for the earliest that you could take it and have a realistic chance to score what you're wanting. In the end sir we all wish you the best of luck and look forward to you eventually reaching your goal score.
Well said @beyondsudi482 .
The other factor with the LSAT is that our scores are determined by how we perform compared to other test takers. So whether you think it’s excessive or not, the top range of all of our scores will be determined by how well we perform against a large field of really smart people who’ve studied for a year+. Anyone who wants to be in the top range is going to have to be competitive with that block of students. For me, I have at least enough self awareness to know that I am not smart enough to overcome someone of even average intelligence who has studied for a year longer than me. Maybe it is a ridiculous amount of time to study for a test, but that is what we are all up against.
Well, she also scored a 170, which is over 97 percentile of that administration.
I don't think ppl are trying to discourage you but to offer a realistic mindset so that you don't set yourself up for disappointment. I had the similar mentality too back then honestly, until I got into this. Have an okay GPA, to the point for the longest time I kinda just got used to "conquering" the things I do, especially academically. Thought this exam would be no exception. Well, I was wrong, fundamentally wrong. So I came in with a humble spirit instead and immediately got to work ever since. I believe you are talented, not one moment I doubt that, everyone is talented in their own ways. But to conquer this thing might take just a little bit more than the natural talents, even if your goal is from 146 to 165. I believe you can do it.
Best of luck.
This is as flawed as saying "if you had a 146 diagnostic, should you even become an attorney?"
Well, of the major tests in the US, unless you royally suck at math, only the MCAT is harder. But the MCAT tests much of what pre-med students have studied for 3 years or more. People don't just randomly pick up and decide to become doctors and take the MCAT out of nowhere like people do with the LSAT. Anyone with an undergrad degree can go to law school and this test is a large part of what stands in the way. Now some people by chance had a background that is suitable to the LSAT and hit the 160s or 170s on their diagnostic. Others are ill prepared for the test by their education and so they have a lot tougher road. But the LSAT has very little to do with law school just as law school has little to do with being a lawyer in many if not most cases. People score poorly on the LSAT and go to diploma mills and turn out to be awesome lawyers and people score 180s and go to HYS and end up as mediocre lawyers or get out of the profession all together because there are far more skills involved in being a lawyer than what is tested on the LSAT and success on the LSAT does not correlate to overall law school success, nor does it correlate to success as a lawyer.
@combsni116
My advice is to research the scholarship potential of the LSAT. The money you can save up front (~100k) is worth the effort when you consider the years of your salary that may go directly to loans. Then again, maybe someone pays for your school, I don't know.
Also, putting the effort into a high LSAT score gives you unbelievable flexibility in the schools you can choose. When costs of living are combined with tuition, everything adds up.
The point of my long post was to give you perspective of the mistakes I made on the way to a (hopefully) high score. If you want to stick to your plan go for it, I'm just offering the information I have from my own perspective which seemed similar to yours.
Great for you!
Our background stories and obstacles obviously are not a concern for you.
No one on this site has ever said that achieving score goals in a short time frame is impossible. If you need to inflate your ego, go for it:) Kind of sad, we are a community of support and sharing our experiences is apparently a waste of your time and ours.
Can't wait.
LOL
With a 160 being the worst case scenario, there is no reason to wait, if I am not satisfied I will just retake it. I've already improved on the Logic Games and today when I did did a practice LR I went 20-26. I can only see it getting better.
I've never heard of so many people struggling with one test. If you have to take a year and a half just to study for a test, should you even become an attorney? Just be on the look out for my "I told you so" post. I have nothing but time this summer.
@jhaldy10325 thank you! That's very helpful.
I started off getting 2 questions right on logic games. T-w-o. And I finished PTing in the low to mid 170s. But it took me about 8 months to get there, and the path was always rocky. I don't think you're going to get there before September; December or February, depending on your progress, are more reasonable.
Hahaha well said. I liked the LR bible but LG wasn't very helpful.
**Diagnostic of 146 checking in**
I started studying for the LSAT in March 2015 eyeing a June 2015 take. I also started with the bibles and planned to self-study with a 165 goal in mind. After getting through the bibles and taking some practice tests I had improved to a 156-159 range, obviously short of my goal and pretty frustrating. I realized that 3 months was simply an inadequate amount of time to study if you're trying to make serious improvement. You must give your brain time to slowly develop and retain these skills. Think of the LSAT like learning a new language...you don't cram Spanish into your brain then develop proficiency right away. It takes time, determination, and immersion in the material.
With that said, I postponed my June exam and started 7Sage in mid July 2015 with an October take in mind. I thought improving from high 150s to 165+ in that time would be no problem. I was wrong. I hit a pretty tough plateau in the 162-164 range. I basically needed to have one of my best "PT days" in order to hit my target score on the real LSAT. Let me tell you...no matter how much you simulate test like conditions, it's just that. A simulation. Nothing can compare to the adrenaline rush of the real thing/taking the LSAT with many other people simultaneously. Anyway, not knowing this, I took the Oct 2015 LSAT , felt horrible after, and cancelled my score (generally anti canceling but I felt I had a legit reason to).
After my Oct 2015 disaster I was pretty devastated but was determined to beat this test. Got back into studying mid December 2015 with a June 2016 take in mind. I redid the whole curriculum and planned to do PTs 36-77. My first several PTs in January were still in the 163-165 range which was pretty frustrating. But after taking time, I hit my first 170 in late February. By actually putting effort in the the process (Good BR) I made some solid gains. From Feb.-June I took 2 PTs per week with good BR, averaged in the 167 region with a high score of 173.
I took the June 2016 LSAT and hope I broke 165 or I'm retaking. During the actual test s*it hits the fan and you fly by the seat of your pants. You need to learn the skills to they're instinctual. Conventional wisdom says that you should take the LSAT once you average 3 points above your target score..this accounts for the "test day penalty".
My point in all of this is that the LSAT takes time. I didn't feel ready to take the exam until a full year after I had originally anticipated. Don't force yourself to take the test. Your 3 takes are way too valuable and most people need all 3 in order to hit that magic 170 mark. (Except maybe your friend..unless they're just a lair).
Hopefully my timeline helps put some things into perspective for you. Scoring 98th percentile on the LSAT doesn't just happen from self-studying from a few books, it's a legitimate commitment and definitely the biggest intellectual challenge I've faced in my life. With that said, it's certainly beatable if you put in the work
LOL, sure.
Hmmm ... I don't buy it.
Amen, yo.
Why do you "figure" this is the "worst" case scenario? You'd be wasting a take in any/either event.
I am a first generation college graduate and attended Princeton University. I got all 5's on AP courses and SAT was above Princeton's median. I was the first person from my school to ever go anywhere prestigious. I took graduate seminars as a sophomore. My writing has been published in the WSJ and the LA Times. I've taught myself languages. I taught myself to play the cello and to sing (and I've done that professionally, too). I built my own computer when I was 14. If you wanna talk talent, then let's talk talent.
This test took me 1.5 years. The LSAT remains the hardest thing I've ever done.
Hey @35684 , happy to elaborate.
So I’m trying not to use a lame metaphor, but no luck. My apologies. So in this lame metaphor, mastering LG is like chopping down a tree. Powerscore goes from the top down, from the branches in. (Sometimes you have to do that, but in this metaphor we don’t have to worry about roads or buildings or anything.) I think a great example of this is their elaborate grouping game classifications. Powerscore presents grouping games as though there are loads of varieties of grouping games. The first step is to identify the game type based on a multitude of variables. Once you know what type of game you’re dealing with, there is a unique approach to each type. Well, it’s all just branches on the same tree. There are only actually two types of grouping games, and they’re not even really different. By learning the core concepts instead of the superficial facades, you learn that every single grouping game is essentially the exact same. If you master one, you master them all. By chopping down the tree from the trunk, all of the branches fall.
I was struggling so much with LG. I spent 6 months studying it and was still at around -10 to -12 a section. After about 2 weeks of having abandoned PS and started over with a new curriculum I was down to around -4. It really was that abrupt of a turnaround for me. These days, -2 feels like a catastrophe.
If you’re curious to look further into this for yourself, go watch the 7Sage video on youtube for a game that’s given you hell. By the end of it, I’ll bet you won’t understand how it could ever have been quite so difficult.
Hope this helps!
@jhaldy10325 Why do you say light the games book on fire? I have it and I'm just curious on your views of it compared to other study materials